Trading without stop-losses -
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thread: Trading without stop-losses

  1. #21
    Junior Member ampi_gg's Avatar
    15
    CrucialPoint,

    I couldn't agree more. [OT: by the way, thanks for the great journal and insights].

    Jest1081: if margin call rings, I'm afraid is a little bit too late; do not you believe? Generally it would be at least a 50% loss in one trade; today if the goal is to optimize your profits (at least that is mine, actually at demoing) why on Earth would you accept a -50percent in just one move?

    In my situation it would be even worse, because with Dukascopy they hedge against you, until your have money; basically without SL, you'd exit your trade with a nil closing equilibrium.

    Reassuring? And what for?

    Again, I'm definitely a newbie and still trying to solve the mystery (at least marginally), but no SL isn't for meone of those few things I'm sure about.

  2. #22
    I guess I should clarify my position some. Not using a SL does not mean losing transactions dont shut out. It is I give my self so much space in trading that I basically dont want them. I find a retrace eliminate or to reduce my deficit. My SL is not predicated on a number but what I think that the market will give me back when it retraces. Most of the time I get a little profit or breakeven. Times every little loss. On infrequent occasions I take a hit but I exchange little enough not to destroy my account. The only time I've take an across the board reduction is if I find myself caught in a super news story (NFA is not a a super news story) As an example an interest rate change, I know I am on the wrong side of this transaction and I know it is likely to operate for a little while. I dont fight people and take the loss. I've a place I have a loss but it is based on which I know the fundamentals have been on a commerce. If I am trading and that I see a buy situation on a euro I will choose the commerce but in climate I won't stay together with the trade long on a euro buy. The market is simply too negative on this one. Not using SL loses doesnt mean a trade that is losing never closes out. We deal with each one separately based on our knowledge of the fundamentals or market requirements. I am not afraid to shut a commerce, when you reach this point in trading you can do this and you have to do it, then you're ready. If you cant shut a trade and understand of why you need to close or keep with it the difference you want to use SL. It is a trading skill. A trade may shut because I know it is a trade and that I dont need to take care of this. Some transactions I've gone -600 and ended with a profit. It is not opportunity or guess work, it is a trading skill.

  3. #23
    Junior Member alexandrasanz's Avatar
    23
    CrucialPoint,

    I could not agree more. [OT: by the way, thanks for the journal and insights].

    : if margin call rings, I'm afraid is a tiny bit too late; do not you think? Generally it would be a 50% loss in 1 trade; now when the goal is to optimize your profits (at least that is mine, even in demoing) why on Earth would you accept a -50percent in just 1 move?

    In my case it would be even worse, because with Dukascopy they hedge against you, until your have cash; basically without SL, you'd exit your commerce with...
    why put equity with the broker when all the broker need is margin and margin for maintainence.

  4. #24
    Junior Member QuimFokt's Avatar
    16
    now when the objective is to maximize your profits (at least that is mine, even in demoing) why on Earth do you take a -50% in just 1 move?
    I Had risk 50% providing the probabilities and benefit are not appropriate. After all, I risk 50% of my funds on dozens of trades, so I need to have a price to risk it. I haven't seen such a situation yet though .

  5. #25
    Junior Member ampi_gg's Avatar
    15
    Some transactions I have gone -600 and ended with a profit. It is not guess work or chance, it's a trading ability.
    Sorry but I can't agree. It is really possible you're much more proficient than I am (and I mean it), also because I don't think I am proficient at all; nonetheless, I don't think it's a skill to have 600 pips down, even when you're aiming for tens of thousands up.

    The concept is very simple: I think you will all agree with me that market isn't predictable. You can stick to the market, it is possible to try your best to know where the pressure is going and also to get an insight in reversal, until the majority; I am certain that you can be very proficient in that.

    To say that you can predict something that's so unsteady in character, for obvious reasons, is out of question. Rules that were simple govern weather and we have no insight on time scales. You may have a general idea, based on averages and other aspects, but when I asked the scientist what the weather will be like within 1 month from today, he will need to blindly guess.

    Now: How do you be sure that the 600 pips will return? What are you aiming for, if prepared to accept even a greater reduction? 10k pips? I am afraid I can't follow your reasoning.

    I readily trust you when you state that without SL your chances to win are much more than those to loose; but few loosing times (still possible) suffice to blow your account. It would be like playing in a roulette with 35 reds and one black; you will need to pay more than 36 times exactly what you buy when a red is sorted, BUT when the shameful is sorted. Of course you're a'winner' in the long run, I am afraid, this approach contributes to a catastrophe.

    Also, difficult for me to understand why you would allow run 600 pips down. Would not it be on the opposite side of the market? Let's put it straight: if you're down 50 pips (let us say) on a specific time scale, why wouldn't you accept you're wrong and take the other hand? Still 550 pips to go, right?

    If the answer is you can not know it, then I doubt you can be sure 600 pips will return in black from a deep red. How can you make sure about that?

    Anybody has his/her very own personality, but 600 pips down to me mean only 1 thing: you were wrong on that trading and you do not want to accept it; let us expect the market will come back to save . Possibly the majority of times it will, particularly with currencies, but nothing (to me) has zero percent chance. You can construct an arbitrage onto it, if you can find a zero chance. I do not think you can; you can just equilibrium various opportunities (hopefully in an efficient means to create a profit).

    My 2 pennies.

    Jest, I know your rationale. A position couldn't open but that is me. However, even pushing it further, I'd set a catastrophic halt, just in case (where catastrophic is nonetheless well before a margin call).

    Mr JI know that it is likely to blow an account even with risk management, gradually and that is what I am worried about, to be frank, for myself; that is the reason why I'll demo many transactions and I will use very low leverages, trying to understand before being pumped from the sport. Again, to be frank, I am far to be sure about that.

    If you risk 50% on a movement, though, I don't think there's a reward appropriate for that; since -again- nothing is certain.

  6. #26
    Junior Member Dimeruben's Avatar
    27
    Thats exactly how I view it
    why put greater in the account than your using

    dont know stop loss when margin call is already an automated stoploss for us.

  7. #27
    Junior Member Dimeruben's Avatar
    27
    The way to go is let transactions get 600 in profit, not -600

    every1 is indeed concerned about some huge draw down, they dont figure out how to undo this

    have a significant draw up

  8. #28
    Junior Member ampi_gg's Avatar
    15
    why put more into the account than your using
    trend_chaser, should you put it this way, it is logical to me to await the margin call (at the worst case) or to close a position well beforehand.

    I am not that preoccupied, likely. I believe I see what you are saying; although I could not do this.

  9. #29
    Junior Member QuimFokt's Avatar
    16
    I do not think it's a skill to have 600 pips down, even if you are aiming for thousands up
    Depends on the strategy and timeframe. If euro climbs to 2480, many trades that are position will endure a drawdown of 600 pips, yet many will continue to hold.

    To say that you can predict something that is so unsteady in nature, for obvious reasons, is out of question. Weather is governed by simple rules and we have no insight on big time scale.
    Consider another perspective: summer is hot, winter is cold.

    but couple of times (still potential ) suffice to dismiss off your account.
    Not having a stop doesn't mean that he will not cut his losses at some point, it just suggests that the stop is dynamic and discretionary. He could keep it inside his mind, or place the order and adjust it as he sees fit.

    I know that it is possible to dismiss off an account even with risk management, gradually and that is what I'm concerned about, to be frank; that is why I'll demo many trades and I will use quite low leverages, trying to understand before being kicked out of this sport.
    There's nothing wrong with that, as obviously risk management is key to longterm survival.

    should you risk 50 percent on a movement, however, I do not believe there is a reward suitable for that; since -again- nothing is sure.
    Certainty is not needed. If someone offered me 10:1 on a coinflip, I'd sure as hell risk 50% of my funds.

  10. #30
    Junior Member Dimeruben's Avatar
    27
    It's difficult to explain, since most of us see things diferent

    patience, subject, standpoint, is the best I can do

    today when a transactions going against you, your waiting to get into profit, and get urself out of a uncomfy scenario
    which means ur likely taking a small profit, particularly in contrast to this draw down, I used to exchange like it doesnt work

    its better to take a loss, and re input when its clear, than to wait it out
    no since holding onto some idiotic trades

    you also will need to learn how to continue for larger profits, makes it worth ur while still

    basically, you have to do the opposite what u been doing, in case ur not profitable I mean, I dont mean inverse ur signals, but your perspective

    it dont need to be tough

    far as the sl goes, I consider the swings to depart, since the swings arent there yet, and I realy suck at predicting, I wait n see what happens, I love to shoot losses at support and resistance, it generally is close to my entrance, sometimes


    , if you put it that way, it is logical to me to wait for the margin call (at the very worst case) or to close a place well in advance.

    I'm not that preoccupied, likely. I couldn't do this; but I believe I see what you are saying.

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