Averaging when already In the RED....

[Remolinero07]

Hello Men,

Im starting this thread as a disscusion on whats refered to as'Averaging down' (I presume ). I know this is frequently looked down on as a bad move, but with the arrival of FTI that there seems to be quite afew practising it and that I also have suspicions that some senior members also Emlploy It in to their trading strategies.

I averaged down In my way that I examined In the Journal section of this website, and I did very nicely became obsessed with analyzing It way so have since analyzed It onto a Currency Market simulator and have been experiencing similar outcomes.

Today, like anything In trading, averaging down must be done At a planned and risk conscious manor. I see it like that, If my prejudice remains fairly powerful for the original direction then why don't you enter in a better price? And, correct me If Im wrong in my assumption, however the additional price moves the more likely It is due to retrace(atleast a bit ), and If that doesnt happen, then you always have your pre-determined stop price to take you from this transaction gone wrong.

Does anyone else here regularly trade In this manner?

Leon

[PkbinFrttt]

Hi Guys,

Im starting this thread for a disscusion on whats refered to as'Averaging down' (I presume ). I understand that this Is frequently looked down as a bad move, but with the arrival of FTI there seems to be very afew practising it and I have suspicions that some senior members additionally Emlploy It in to their trading plans.

I averaged down In my way which I tested From the Journal section of this site, and although I did very nicely became obsessed with analyzing It way so have since analyzed It onto a forex simulator and have been undergoing similar... I call it Scaling In Yes; I really do utilze it BUT:
I'd like to think I have a Reason to Believe I am on the right side of the fence until I do this.

[virr.exc]

1 Attachment(s) I'm no specialist, but this man reportedly made a few quid.

[Danichesa]

In addition, I use it and have success with it. Although I am in line together and utilize it as an scaling in approach. I put higher priority on managing the transaction than the actual entry.

Trade Well. .
Brent




Hi Guys,

Im starting this thread for a disscusion on whats refered to as'Averaging down' (I think). I understand that this Is often looked down as a bad move, but with the arrival of FTI there seems to be very afew practising it and that I have suspicions that some senior associates additionally Emlploy It in to their trading plans.

I averaged down In my way that I examined In the Journal section of this website, and although I did very nicely became obsessed with testing It that manner so have since tested It on a Currency Market simulator and have been experiencing similar...

[alexandrasanz]

I average down in everything is do, even when buying shares, esp in the current climate.

Heck I typical down and up also.

More importantly, the risk needs to be clearly underlined. The rest is modus operandi

[Remolinero07]

I'm no expert, but this man apparently made a few quid.
I understand this Is the sort of thing Id be in your side of this fence with usually, but I cant argue with the fact that it appears to be working out... for now.

[Remolinero07]

I love to think that I have a Reason to Believe I am on the right side of the fence before I do this. And I wouldnt expect anything less from a respected guy like you...

[Remolinero07]

I typical down in everything is do, even if buying stocks, esp in the current climate.

Heck I typical down and up too.

More importantly, the risk needs to be clearly underlined. The remainder is modus operandi Agreed

[Remolinero07]

I also use it and have success with it. Although I'm consistent with and utilize it as an scaling within strategy. I place higher priority on handling the trade than the real entry.

Trade Well. .
Brent Can you scale out aswell?

The reason why I ask Is because If you find entries hard to pinpoint then It will be any easier to choose a fantastic exit.

[lDokut07]

A futile hedge is where you've got a position going long in the long run for example, and then take a position brief when you see you can earn a nice short-term retracement commerce, without it impacting your overall position.

Or is this where you take a commerce going short for example, the market retraces and you then take another place going short again when you believe the market includes a continuation of the first move?

[Remolinero07]

A futile hedge is where you have a position going long at the very long run for instance, then take a position brief once you see you could earn a nice short-term retracement commerce, without it impacting your general position.

Or is where you take a commerce going short for instance, the market retraces and then you take another place going short again once you think the market includes a continuation of the first transfer? Second alternative, going short once you have a brief currently in the red.

[yuste07]

Roland Campbell out of Millionaire Traders averages down as his primary way of trading. I have seen his personal and handled account statements. Sometimes he takes 6-8 averages in 1 trade. Its strong so long as you use proper risk throughout the entire average.

Its utilized in zone to zone trading. When you believe that price will proceed from a general zone to the next, you don't have authoritative entrances and exits, so you develop a position in 1 zone, and you scale in the one that you're aiming for, or dump it if its not exercising.

Lets say that you notice there are obviously stops at a certain level that you believe the market will run. You are trading toward a point rather than from a point. That means you can begin getting in and pyramid up as it closes in or average down as it draws away . Then you dump your position on your target, or get out if it is not working out. Works great on around number breaks, option expiries, and post news volatility.

[lDokut07]

I recall reading that most martingale egies use this and there was a relatively common fib egy using this technique at retracements/moves to fib levels somewhere with this forum (or perhaps over at TSD, today I consider it).

I tried using it a couple of times with various demo's, but always squeezed the account as my first entry was crap and then I misread all of the signs for a change rather than a retracement. Would you also double your position on each re-entry like martingalers do as jest scale and suggested into the commerce?

[lDokut07]

Hxcjf, only answered my question...

[Remolinero07]

Roland Campbell from Millionaire Traders averages down as his principal way of trading. I have seen his personal and handled account statements. Sometimes he takes 6-8 averages in 1 trade. Its strong as long as you use appropriate risk throughout the entire average.

Its used in zone to zone trading. When you feel that price will move from one general zone to another, you don't have authoritative entrances and exits, in order to develop a position in 1 zone, and you scale out in the one you're aiming for, or dump it if its not exercising.

Lets... Any idea what his possition sizing was for entries after the inital one? On 8 averages I cant imagine him raising dimensions considerably. And any notion about his ordinary win/loss?

[Raty1987]

Wow, It's been a while since I've been on FF...

There is a right way and a wrong way to average. The wrong way is what most men and women tend to use, and that is opening a trade, and then just doubling that order when the trade moves against them.
The right way to average would be to split your order into little bits and add on anything you're trading becomes cheaper and cheaper.

Let us say for example you generally trade 3 lots. If the EUR/USD is currently trading in 1.30, then put in a single lot at 1.30, the following at 1.2950 along with a third in 1.29. . This way you can get yourself in at a healthy price without over Implementing your account.

In addition, make sure that averaging makes sense with your entry/exit egy. If you're trading breakouts, it may not make sense. .

[Lissetlugo]

Its utilized in zone to zone trading...

Works great on round amount breaks, alternative expiries, and post news volatility. Zone to zone - that is where I always thought there was benefit - when the entrance is not an absolute number (scale in), or so the departure is not a defined goal (scale out).

But I can not see how round number breaks or expiries collapse inside that egory? The more specific the entry/or goal, the less benefit of scaling, surely?

[LuisNuray77]

Wow, It has been some time since I have been on FF...

there's a ideal way and a wrong way to average. The wrong way is what most people tend to use, and that's opening a trade, and then simply doubling that order once the trade moves against them.
The ideal way to average would be to split your order into small pieces and add on anything you're trading becomes more economical and cheaper.

Let us say for instance you usually commerce 3 lots. If the EUR/USD is currently trading in 1.30, then add on one lot at 1.30, another at 1.2950 along with a third in 1.29....
Agree with this post 100 percent, I believe any kind of scaling or averaging in should be calculated with appropriate mm and entrance levels. Otherwise it would be like adding to a loss. It would be wholly different, of course, when we are building up a position since it goes our way.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Hi,

Superdezign is right: the maximum position should be the end-position containing of as many increments of person smaller positions as you see fit.

After I see a possible change in management, I set order types (limitations under the price and ceases over the price - or vice versa) to'construct' a position.

When the price gets of the starting blocks way enough, I route, if not well, I have sufficient book to escape even at worst.

I adhere to particular gaps between each order and typically have 4 orders for starters - then see how it goes.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/1519365583436984402.png

[MoktseWixxy]

I typical down everything is do, even when buying stocks, esp in the current climate.

Heck I typical down and up also.

More importantly, the risk needs to be clearly underlined. The rest is modus operandi ^^^ This is the correct answer.

Averaging up is much better though.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Yes, when the position is built and moves to the desirable direction, you are automatically averaged UP by as many places as you have averaged down. Further places will (or can) be inserted and each will have its own trail in order that only the last in the sequence can lose.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656571951652130.png

[LuisNuray77]

Average up, average down, martingale or whatever name you call it.
As long as it works, then it is good system.

[Pan]

I average out. I average in but only as the price moves in my direction and not away from it at the hope of mean reversion. I don't know of a single trader who averages down. Jacko, Jim16 and several mentors of the exact same stature in this forum have said its much better to take the loss. I often agree with my expertise.

I remember once saying gj went in one direction by 800 pips without retrace, there was a thread about it where traders were using some type of a martingale egy. Most of them got screwed.

I attempted averaging back on vhands it worked well for about 8 months and then came the inevitable conclusion

I think the way you look at it averaging down is a recepie for disaster more so in fx as tendencies are quite powerful.

Only didnt work for me I can't justify throwing good money after bad thinking things will turn around.

This is only my personal opinion. At the end all that matters is that the money you rake in irrespective of the method you follow.

[Remolinero07]

I remember once saying gj went in one direction by 800 pips without retrace, there was a thread about it where traders were using some kind of a martingale egy. Most of them got screwed.

I tried averaging down on vhands it worked well for about 8 weeks and then came the inevitable end

I think the way you look at it averaging down is a recepie for disaster more so in fx as trends are quite powerful.
Its all down to controlling your risk.... like always. In case you have a possitive expectancy and can controll your risk then there is absolutely no issue.

[Danichesa]

Hello, did not say I find entrances difficult to pinpoint I said I put priority but some of the time that I do scale out.




Can you scale out aswell?

The reason I ask Is because in the event that you find entries hard to pinpoint then It will be simpler to choose a fantastic exit.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Fugly,

there's a difference between'construction' a situation and throwing good money after bad as you place it by maintaining a dead position alive.

Before the start of a major directional move (or trend), there's usually a preceeding period of indecisiveness. That period can be many 100 pips in range (based what the most important TF is you are looking at).

Since the trader doesn't know the precise time of this impending move, he has to place himself egically to gain the best typical entry for the whole planned place. In my experience won't just happen by adding to the position after your way has moved - you create a average by taking advantage of changes in the range which are initially not in you favour.

As previous posters have pointed out, it must occur in a really calculated procedure in order not to overleverage, and it's all depending on the planned overall size of this situation.

regards

[Lissetlugo]

When the price gets of the starting blocks far enough, I route, if not - well, I have enough book to escape even at worst. DT - nice averaging. But you can get out a b/e at worst?
Say in your eg, you've divided your risk into 4 orders:
two limit buys under, two stop buys over.
If from that position price goes down and past your limits into the red, do you then use the 2 cease buys part of your order (which haven't been triggered) to'escape' the losing trade?

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

DT - nice averaging. But you can get out a b/e at worst?
Say in your eg, you have split your risk to 4 orders:
2 limit buys under, two stop buys over.
If from this place price moves down and beyond your limits to the red, do you then use the 2 cease buys part of your order (that haven't been triggered) to'escape' the dropping trade? Triphop,

I do not know beforehand in which order the entries will be piled. I take my first entry at market and put the limit/stop according to wherever the price moves . So for example there could be one market order, one limit order under (if long the market) which might never have triggered because the market takes off in my path from the beginning and I continue adding on the way upward.

When I put in at market along with the price immediately moves against the desired direction, I might place just one limit order further below in order to judge if my thought still holds - I have enough firepower to let it drop to support amounts which where I could decide to enter another order at market to rescue the transaction possibly in the half way mark.

I don't know how far away I am when I think its time to build a position - but that my order size in that point is small enough to be incorrect and still come out ok while when I'm right, the last amount of gathered small orders (that IF I'm right will be trailed), constitute quite a chunky spot in my favour - with just the previous increment likely to shed.

regards

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Here are the last 3 positions I am building since the start of the week.

Currently up by 2.4%, worst DD was at 1.2% and trailing most orders .

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656581775873690.png
https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656601110185774.png
https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/1519365661904134564.png

[Lissetlugo]

Thanks DT, much appreciated. I mostly trade swing timescales and I've been on the lookout for ways of improving entry (I'm currently one shot type of trader), and this seems just the job.

[yuste07]

The important thing is planning. If averaging matches into your strategy then its fine. If you took an preliminary position, then only average to try to escape a loser, risking more than you intended, you may encounter an outlier which can wipe you out. You always have a stop, however you're trading momentum and directional ranges rather than precise price points.

Roland has a lot of small winners (1 percent ) (likely 75-80percent ), an occasional bigger loser(3-5percent ), and a few bigger winners (3-5percent ). Large winners occur a lot more often than losers. The concept is to forecast where price will end up and then typical in until it hits on your target and then dump it.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Hi,

simply to illue the scaling-in procedure (or averaging-in) more to the point of this thread.

The usd/chf position was discontinued out for a profit, so has the usd/cad position. The position that has survived with a total of 4 most profitable longs on a stop is eur/usd. This one has the potential to run till the close of the week.

Either way, two% profit have been locked in to the week (and this week was not too active concerning trending moves).

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656631390979725.png

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

95012 The trailing stop for all eur/usd long positions now moved further in our favor - and original retracement allows to identify new short term uptrend.

New TL as a step to move stops together - till it turns again.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656651220316390.png

[Remolinero07]

95011
The trailing stop for most eur/usd long positions now moved further in our favour - and first retracement allows to recognize new short-term uptrend.

New TL as a step to move stops along - till it turns again.

Regards
daytrading Its nice to get a look In on how you trade DT, Ive never realy read any mention by you about your method of trading earlier.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

950111 Structure (s) Hi Leon,

many ways lead to Rome. It's among the egies accessible to trade - there are far more in the tool box; a few a few that are short long-term.

Closed the bulk 300 (having an entrance avg. At 1.2945), which brings the week to more than 5% - need to cut the grass for the next 3-4 hours since rain has been guaranteed for the weekend.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/1519365666273494135.png

[Remolinero07]

95011
Hi Leon,

many ways lead to Rome. It's among those egies accessible to trade - you will find more in the tool box; a few a few long-term.

Closed the majority 300 (having an entry avg. In 1.2945), which attracts the week to more than 5% - need to cut the grass for the next 3-4 hours because rain was promised for the weekend.

Regards
daytrading This was a very nice trade mate.

Just from curiosity(on EU), at what price and time was the 1st Buy made and which of those Buys were created while price was climbing? Im hoping to get an idea of the commerce developed.

Leon

EDIT: Middle, highest, lowest (order of Buys made)? If that's the case, had you intended to average further down If price continued? Regardless, once the combination of transactions had attained (or was getting nearer ) to a risk barrier, would you move to scale from the losing possitions biggest loss 1st or close all at once??

Hope Im not being too nosey.

[edukyplug]

95011
I am no expert, but this man apparently created a few quid. Losers average losers. Well said, PTJ said!

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

95011
That was a really nice trade partner.

Just out of curiosity(on EU), at what price and time was the 1st Buy made and that of those Buys were made while price was rising? Im just hoping to get an idea of how the trade developed.

Leon

EDIT: Middle, highest, lowest (order of Buys made)? If that's the case, had you intended to average down If price lasted? Regardless, once the combination of trades had attained (or was getting closer) to your risk barrier, do you move to scale out of the losing possitions largest loss 1st or shut all at once??

Hope... Hi Leon,

1st buy EU on 21st at 07:54 @ 1.2946
2nd buy EU on 21st at 13:03 @ 1.2915
3rd buy EU on 21st at 14:12 @ 1.2975

I had one further buy limit at 1.2885 whether it would have gotten there since the previous days low was 1.2886.

The 3rd buy at 1.2975 was a buy-stop. If the buy limit at 1.2885 could have been triggered, I doubt that the 3rd buy would have been triggered - rather I feel the price would have found new highs first. If that's the case, I'd have experienced a position average at approximately 1.2915 (rather than 1.2945). I'd have figured out service and bought enough to average the price down from 1.2915 to where I feel it might retrace back to damage limitation. Then exit and regroup.

Unless a whole sudden massive event strikes the news, and I am not talking about scheduled daily releases, so you may always expect the price to retrace to a certain amount after discovering a new low/high. That provides the chance to get out at a greater than expected level on a trade that is failed.

regards

[EspinET]

95011This thread is clearing up the subject of scaled trading for me.

Many thanks Superdezign, Daytrading and Leon!

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

95011
Losers average losers. Well stated, PTJ, nicely said!
Dear CateFul,

Before taking sides with what looks to me like a very broad generalization, maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea to consider the next points/questions.

What according to Paul Tudor Jones (the man in the film ) represents a'loser' may not be the simple fact that the price is only moving into the opposite direction following the traders entrance. In reality, how many traders can say that each of their positions always and straight after entrance goes positive?

Secondly, when the trader has a position that leaves him room to increase (i.e. his/her initial position is merely a fifth of his/her intended general size), while he's got a 100 pip stop (for instance ) and this position is let's say in the negative by 50 pips but the price on the chart is creating a higher low (based on the low which his 100 pip stop is based on), then the position wouldn't always be a loser - and also the trader could increase his position based on the notion that the new high reduced is an affirmation of his/her original position (or assumption of his first trade idea).

To prove my point, here is a quote from Paul Tudor Jones' meeting with Jack Schwager in the Market Wizards book. Page 123:....and I had been buying it every time it came down to the very low end of that range.

His buy orders were at different levels - some above, some below his very first buy....but all above a degree he'd certainly get out (if it go that low).

When a commerce becomes a'loser' is a really subjective matter based on your type of trading, in your position size(s) and your capital vs. the time frame you exchange also. What about a 15min TF may look like a losing exchange for a single trader, is a minor retracement onto a chart for a different - that may just add a little position.

regards

[patatas08]

CateFul,

Simply,what dt is stating is that simply because your losing does not mean that you've lost(you only lose when your quit outside ).Therefore,if you have not dropped,putting another position is simply giving you an average position nearer to current prices and therefore beneficial,given it does not exceed your highest possible risk.

If your whole risk is 2% and your stop on your first position is 2%,then you've got no business buying/selling in again.
You must break up your position in order to operate this way.
I do this quite frequently and it works nicely.
Dt,if I have misunderstood I want to know and most of apologies if I have.
I wouldn't want to confuse things,trading is confusing enough as it is.LOL.


Cheers
sk

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

CateFul,

Just,what dt is saying is that just because your losing doesn't mean you've lost(you only lose when your quit outside ).Therefore,when you have not dropped,putting another position is only providing you an ordinary position nearer to current prices and so beneficial,provided it doesn't exceed your highest possible risk.

If your whole risk is 2% and your stop on your first position is 2%,then you've got no business buying/selling in again.
You must split your position up in order to operate this way.
I do so quite frequently and it works... Yes, all-in-all what you're saying reflects my primary purpose.

I'd add though that even in the event that you do this'breaking-up' of a entire planned position into smaller increments in order to ordinary, there is still a matter of time involved. That is the difficult role in knowing when you're flogging a dead horse vs. building a highly profitable position - which is more a matter of each traders person trading procedure. Not many methods require averaging to be profitable of course and finally that's why imo for the saying' losers' occurrence ordinary losers'.

In trading models where you've fixed standing sizes and fixed stops it'd of course be a matter of violating these principles, should the trader maintain a fixed position beyond a fixed stop in order to attempt to average the trade out - and consequently running the risk of losing more than permitted by the system or losing greater than initially calculated.

It's all about the definition of a'loser'.

regards

[Verokicadayzn]

Averaging works... only if perform a nicely informed investment and using no leverage.

Meaning
'when price drops, you can acquire the golden property at more favor price' (buffet)

well advised and no leverage is key to the'averaging', also should enter next position in a major amount like day TF m-m degree,
make sure that the averaging is important enough compared with market moves

still amount of place to expose in a single pair is to function as well controled, favor lt;10 percent of total equities assuming no leverage. (turtles)...
putting all one's money or more in a single wager is nothing but suicide.

In short-term trading of no significance pair, too freq use of averaging is readily run into over leverage
(by way of example, 10x 1st place, 10x when in red, another 10x double and you may only tolerate 2.5% market movement )
... (then and no stop/loss habit) will blow up readily.

Do a hedging on a pair which reversely correlate with this one can help, this not necessarily locks the loss.
If you really believe waiting long enough time, your target could be hit after a market correction,
perform a hedge on another pair reversely makes much relief coz you do not see loss grow with price movements.


Hi Guys,

Im starting this thread as a disscusion on whats refered to as'Averaging down' (I presume ). I know this is frequently looked down as a bad move, but with the arrival of FTI there seems to be quite afew practising it and that I also have suspicions that some members also Emlploy It into their trading strategies.

I averaged down In my method which I examined In the Journal section of this site, and I did very nicely became obsessed with analyzing It way so have since analyzed It onto a forex simulator and've been undergoing comparable...

[EspinET]

His buy orders were at various levels - some above, some below his very first buy....but all above a level he would definitely get out (should it go that low). However, not a contradiction with the sign on the wall. Really great illustration and explanation. Helps to know the gap between scaled trading and averaging champions. Pretty clear that he put the sign up to make sure he was clear about which side of the fence he had been on.

[edukyplug]

To prove my point, here is a quote from Paul Tudor Jones' Meeting with Jack Schwager in the Market Wizards Publication. Page 123:....and I had been buying it every time it came down to the low end of the range.
Were he end up losing a lot more than that he would on this trade? He was not climbing , his pos got bigger in a ranging market to compensate the vol. He bought more than that he wanted to carry.

You guys are pretty competitive here lol. Scale in is fine, heck I climb in too. But doubling up on a trade is the worst thing you could do.

Everybody's got their own modus operandi. Simply your template is different than mine does not make yours mine and wrong right, nor the other way around. There is A degree a degree. It isn't important how you get in at the level. You may opt to put on half at 5050 as well as another half at 4950 to find a mean of 5000. I may place on half at 5050, cut out it . Put it back at 5000, and include up all of the way. That guy across the room may put on a pos at 5000. Same tickets.

Good trading.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Hi,

no offence meant - as long as we discussing the exact same thing for the learners.

Great trading for you also.

regards,

[patatas08]

difficult part in understanding when you are flogging a dead horse, constructing a highly profitable position
Absolutely dt.



Everybody's got their own modus operandi. Simply your template is different than mine doesn't make yours wrong and mine right, nor the other way round.
Provided your strategy makes cash overall CateFul,it doesnt matter how you skin your .Couldn't agree more.

[La]

Buy more when you're on the side of the market and winning. Go with a trend NEVER contrary to it. Simple...

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

This afternoon scale-in trade.

Maybe room up to 97.50 initially.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/1519365629802580886.png

[Remolinero07]

I got long at 95.85, Placed the pending order evening. There was alot of fuss regarding quits and Strikes and Interest around the area.

DT, if its not too much trouble could you have a look at this post and the ones following It. I thought I knew all this a while ago but maby not....

https://www.cliqforex.com/general-forex-discussion/2806-cot-report-appliion-forex.html

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

I got long at 95.85, Placed the pending order evening. There was alot of Interest around the region and fuss regarding quits and Strikes.

DT, if its not too much trouble could you have a look at this post and those after It. I thought that I knew all this some time ago but maby not....

Https://www.cliqforex.com/trading-system-and-egies/2816-15-minutes-success.html
Hi Leon,

What precisely would you like to understand?

regards

[Remolinero07]

Hi Leon,

What Exactly would you Want to know?

Regards
daytrading To put it simply, Can price change with no trade happening?

Edit: Remember that a trade is made at a price before It becomes the price.

EDIT2: To anyone who answers, can you explain how and why.

[edukyplug]

To put it simply, Can price change with no trade occurring? Oh yeah sure, happens all of the time during data prints or in a fast market.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

To put it simply, Can price move without a trade happening?
That depends upon what is your definition of a'price movement'.

Theoretically the answer is yes. It is best explained with an illuion of an instrument that was illiquid. Take any illiquid stock for example. The price that you get quoted by a broker completely depends upon in which the current bid(s) and offer(s) are.

So, let's say there is one bid at $5.00 and one provide at $5.50 - and we assume that both sides are for 1000 shares of that stock. Your quote for 1000 stocks would be $5.00 to $5.50. Presently a third party joins in and puts a bid at $5.25 and your subsequent new price is $5.25 to $5.50.

Technically, not only the spread has shifted (narrowed) without a trade having gone , the price has changed as well - therefore the new quote. If the offer now decides to up the amount to $5.75, then you get the old spread of $0.50 quoted again but using a new price of $5.25 to $5.75.

You might want to look at it from a charting perspective (which in history came after than market prices), and also the confusion arises in my view because particular charts upgrade on the basis of'last trade' which means without a real trade going through (like to a tick chart), you wouldn't see a real change in price until the upcoming real transaction or request for a new quote.

Within an instrument as liquid as FX (really the most liquid instrument on the planet), the time intervalls are often too small to discern a price movement without a trade having taken place. This liquidity offers easy graphs without (many) openings caused by price movements without trades inbetween.

regards

[Remolinero07]

That depends on what's your definition of a'price movement'.

Theoretically the Solution is yes. It's best explained with an illuion of an illiquid instrument. Take any stock for instance. The price that you get quoted by a broker completely depends on in which the current bid(s) and offer(s) are.

Thus, let us say there is one bid at $5.00 and you also offer at $5.50 - and we presume that either side are for 1000 shares of the stock. Your quote for 1000 stocks would be $5.00 to $5.50. Presently a third party joins in and places a bid at $5.25 and your following... Hmmm, when I add spread to the equation I get confused.

Thus, could it be said that:

'Price only changes when a transaction is made, unless someone makes a bid/offer within the spread'...?

My mind it hurting.

[PkbinFrttt]

Hmmm, when I add spread to the equation I get confused.

So, is it said that:

'Price only changes when a trade is made, unless somebody makes a bid/offer Inside the distribute'...?

My head it hurting. Doing this becoming shrouded would Move the Price.

[Remolinero07]

Doing so Becoming Shrouded would Move the Price. Thats what I was originaly saying, but then.... Im becoming more confused.

Getting packed = A trade was made

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

No, Leon -

Price changes only when current bid's and provide's shift (and one way of this occurring is such as that a bid is now eager to pay the given price).

The market can exchange numerous times in precisely the same price, e.g. if there's a large offer that may absorb many small-sized bids at one price you won't find the price moving at all although maybe 50 transactions have gone through.

Once the deal is drained at a single degree and bids are still coming in at that level, the second offer higher up will determine the price shift.

regards

[PkbinFrttt]

Thats what I was originaly stating, but then.... Im getting confused.

Getting stuffed = A trade was made 3 individuals:
# 1 Owns a Guitar.
# 2 3 want to Buy it.

#2. I will give Bid $100.00
#3. I will give Bid $110.00
#2. Hmph. $115.00
#3. $115.50

Price does not alter Until #1 Says Sold.
Bid/Ask Have been very volitle though.
Why?
#4. Guitar for sale. $80.00.

[Remolinero07]

No, Leon -

Price changes only when current bid's and provide's change (and one means of this occurring is for example a bid is currently willing to pay the given price).

If a trade is made?

The market can exchange numerous times at precisely the exact same price, e.g. when there's a sizable offer that may absorb lots of small-sized bids at one price you won't find the price moving whatsoever but maybe 50 trades have gone .

Im fully aware of the.

When the offer is exhausted at one level and bids are still coming in at that level, the next offer greater up will establish the price change.

Yep

regards
daytrading

It feel like when It comes to this conversation we are all running around in circles and keep missing eachother.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Yes, haha - round in circles we go.

regards

[edukyplug]

Leon, you are looking at the last sale price, not the current market price.

The previous sale price means that there must be a trade taken place at the price. The current market price is the bid/ask. That can change with no trading.

When you come in Sunday evening looking at the hundred point gap, that gap represents a consensus of the dealer community in which the market should be giving what occurred over the weekend. They don't sit down sunday day and look at the last sale price on friday day, and say I am gonna provide you this because that's the previous sale price. They're not going to create the identical price because the demand/supply is currently different from last friday.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Hi Leon,

What's your own $ /Y performing?

I have reduced the entire position by a single device, running the remaining 3 in profit.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656081449349014.png

[Remolinero07]

Hi Leon,

What's your own $ /Y performing?

I have reduced the total position by a single device, running the rest 3 in profit.

Regards
daytrading The UJ trade wasnt born with the intent to carry on for long....


Simply should hit 90% now and Ill be ready to go live.
https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656101490886868.png

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Good luck with it Leon -

I see you enjoy the Kings of Leon; I have been to see them several times reside when they started out.

regards

[Remolinero07]

Good luck with it Leon -

I see you enjoy the Kings of Leon; I've been to see them several times live when they started out.

regards
daytrading
Thanks.

I enjoy alot of different songs, would be great to watch kings of leon live. Ive only ever been to 2 Concerts, Greenday and the Fugee's. Greenday were far too heavy for me live though.

Leon

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Yep, one of my daughters likes greenday...I am more a basic minds enthusiast. . .they have been around for 30 decades now and I still remember the early days.

regards

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

However long $/Y later FOMC with close trail.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656121963174794.png

[Remolinero07]

Nevertheless long $/Y after FOMC with near trail.

regards
daytrading DT, man, your a machine, lol.

Were you taught how to exchange or did you put together your own trading outlook while working in the industry?

Leon

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

All positions closed with trailing stop at 97.71 and complete profit of 2.3% for two days work.

regards

https://www.cliqforex.com/attachments/15193656131370913991.png

[Remolinero07]

All positions closed with monitoring stop at 97.71 and total profit of 2.3percent for 2 days work.

regards
daytrading Show-off. Haha.

Very Good.

Leon

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

DT, man, your a machine, lol.

Were you taught how to trade or did you put together your trading perspective while working in the business?

Leon Hi Leon,

I am a self-taught trader. On the way, I have met some traders however.

regards

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Show-off. Haha.

Really nice.

Leon that I must say that it is not usually my habit to display either my transactions or the way I conduct them. I have felt for some time now that people must choose what one says in here in face value and undoubtedly questions arise sooner or later about a members genuinity.

To counteract the possibility of being called phony and also to reassure newer traders that what comes across is real, I have picked your thread to place a few trades on screen - if you don't mind of course.

I also thought that your interest in enhancing your own skills might benefit from it - although I think we're somewhat beyond answering your primary issue of the thread.

regards

[Remolinero07]

I must say it is not usually my habit to display either my trades or how I conduct them. I've felt for some time that people must choose what one says in here in face value and questions arise sooner or later about a members genuinity.

To counteract the possibility of being called fake and to reassure newer traders what comes across is real, I've picked your thread to place a few trades on screen - if you do not mind of course.

I also thought your interest in enhancing your own skills might gain from... I believe you already know I dont mind In the slightest, and Im very pleased to see anything your prepared to show.

I think that the problem usually arises (and rightly so) if a new member joins and spends 12 hours a day advertising himself on the forum and trying to gain followers utilizing very obscure indior systems. One must ask, what's the reason here which is worth the posters attempt.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

I think you already know I dont mind In the slightest, and Im very happy to see whatever your prepared to show.

I feel the issue generally arises (and rightly so) when a new member joins and spends 12 hours a day advertisements themself on the forum and trying to get followers using very obscure indior systems. One needs to ask, what's the reason here which is worth all the posters effort. Very true, Leon -

regards

[Remolinero07]

Hi DT,

Ive been playing around on demonstration splitting up my possitions In a similar manner you've shown inside this thread, but after looking back in your Long UJ possitions I've a query. Was the commerce created based on only factors?

[Remolinero07]

Im looking to go short GU round the 1.5 level, I'll average (up down, lol) and place the transaction regardless of the way that it goes If price becomes there.

Leon

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Hi DT,

Ive been playing around on demonstration dividing my possitions In a similar way you've shown In this thread, but after looking back at your Extended UJ possitions I have a query. Was the trade made based just facets? Hi Leon,

I don't care much about fundamentals except when expectations come to play for interest rates. My rankings are build early in the week and if they continue until the end of the week, NFP numbers have the potential to take a trade which is profitable out on trailing stops or with luck send the PL to the osphere.

As I mention in my profile, I either follow trends or trade the break-outs. When I follow a tendency, I look whether the price goes up if I want to be long and conversely if I need to be brief, I will be searching for the price to move down. Trading this way you need to bring flexibility into the table - but time is in your favour since larger trends often have a bit of time to materialize (a bit like if the Titanic was attempting to avoid the crash with the iceberg - the wheels so to talk don't work really quickly in water).

To respond to your question: if you class the visual characteristic of studying a chart and determining on the grounds of this graph's direction which place to consider as technical, then yes, it was a choice of technical character.

regards

[Remolinero07]

Hi Leon,

I don't care much about fundamentals except when expectations come into play to get interest rates. My positions are build early in the week and should they continue until the end of the week, NFP numbers have the capacity to take a transaction that's profitable out on trailing stops or with fortune send the PL.

As I mention in my profileI follow trends or trade the break-outs. If I follow a tendency, I seem whether the price goes up if I want to be long and conversely if I need to be brief, I'll be searching... Thanks for the clarifiion DT.

Another personal question, After how long across the markets did you start to think about yourself a competent trader?

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

Thank You for the clarifiion DT.

Another personal question, After how long across the markets did you start to consider yourself a capable trader? Once I started respecting the risk involved and once I realized the simplicity of this bigger picture.

regards

[Remolinero07]

When I started respecting the risk involved and when I recognized the simplicity of this larger picture.

Regards
daytrading Ahh, I forget about the simple part, Nothing but my poor thoughts error which Im not a FT trader by now.

[OxntisOxrina]

I construct the transaction in the same method of you personally, DayTrader, however in smaller TF, usually 15 minutes, and opening positions more nearer to each other.
I open up to 10 positions, it is dependent upon when the price goes in my favor, always considering the R percent.
In this way the risk is dispersed more positions with less lots, instead of on a larger one.

Lubo.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

. . .way to proceed if you want to catch a trend.

regards

[Remolinero07]

.. .way to proceed if you want to capture a fashion.

Regards
daytrading another large advantage I see Is that It reduces the chop issue that the 1 possition systems get hammered by.

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

. .certainly - but don't be fooled, a commerce can nevertheless go belly up and when that happens, overall risk parameters have to be respected.

regards

[Remolinero07]

..certainly - but do not be fooled, a trade can still go belly up and when that occurs, overall risk parameters have to be respected.

Regards
daytrading Im going to believe With this alot more, Ive got work today and tomorrow so wont be able to exchange things and see how I go but Im going to put aside afew hours Sunday to exchange as many weeks as I can on Forex tester.

I feel as though Im getting close to some Burn-out again though,. Maby I need a forum/forex break, come back and see better type of item.

Thank you for your input on the ribbon DT.

Leon

[Oxrcvaxxa21]

My enjoyment, Leon -

Try to not answer too many questions at once. Rather pick topics that are relevant to each other (for example tendencies and time frames) and build up your knowledge.

regards

[jotagete]

I do moderate down last time, doubled my account after 2 months, play with 5 minutes charts,making over 500 rankings in that 2 months, with no single drop.
Then the moon turns blue, before I know what hit me...

[nervitta]

Yes, I can confirm that averaging into a commerce will make you money. I use a egy I exchange on the 1 H period frrame. I attempt to buy the market in the direction of the 4H and I average in my positions at key levels.

I do use stops, based on the pair I'm trading I will use 100 or 200 point stops. Big ceases, but all of my risk is figured per point so I never risk more than 3% over the comprehensive trade.

I then average from the more the market goes contrary to my first position, so originally I start 1 contract, at the second level I add yet another 2 contracts then finally 3. My stop is at exactly the same point in connection to my very first entrance, so as I add more my cease gets smaller.

Once the market turns round I usually take my profit at the close of the final swing based on the direction I was trading. This normally gives me 75% winning trades. The winners will sting a little, but the large percentage of winners then cover up the losses.

I use trend lines tide counting and pivots to exchange off.

Good luck